WAAC/WAC MP units

Guys & Gals.

There has been some talk over the last few weeks or so about trying out a WAC MP Impression. Indeed at Rufford, many of you gave me a shopping list of stuff to get for you - in one of my rolls as 'Quartermaster Sergeant'!! Having already made some enquiries, I have found out the following (mainly from Lloyd Richards);

A) It would appear that most of the pictures seen show girls with SSI's for the Service Command, Zone of the Interior (Stateside), as many of the men were serving overseas and this left a void for the ladies to fill.

B) It may be that early pictures of WACs with '45 Autos were in fact Couriers and NOT MP's??

C) We must be careful apparently, as there do not appear to many articles about WAC MP's in the ETO...??


Whilst it is understandable that alternative impressions should be looked at, and indeed encouraged so as to provide extra interest in the hobby rather than doing 'the same old thing', Lloyd has come up with some other suggestions you may wish to explore, such as;

D) WAC Transportation Corps at the Ports of Embarkation. This would be really different as it has not been done before. WAC's checking log sheets and transportation orders. Male MP's doing what they do on the same display area.

E) Nurses at POW camps towards the end of the war, which apparently is about the closest they got to the front lines??


There is obviously a lot more research that need to take place here, but I hope the above has given you all some food for thought. In any case, we would need to be very careful that we put on the correct impression with the appropriate and complete research having gone into it, otherwise we may leave ourselves wide open for criticism. I also do not want to spend any of your hard earned cash if we are looking at the wrong thing...?

As always, your thoughts are very welcome...

Rusty.

Very interesting, again when researching a unit, the plot thickens.

q[quote="Rusty"]Guys & Gals.

There has been some talk over the last few weeks or so about trying out a WAC MP Impression. Indeed at Rufford, many of you gave me a shopping list of stuff to get for you - in one of my rolls as 'Quartermaster Sergeant'!! Having already made some enquiries, I have found out the following (mainly from Lloyd Richards);

A) It would appear that most of the pictures seen show girls with SSI's for the Service Command, Zone of the Interior (Stateside), as many of the men were serving overseas and this left a void for the ladies to fill.

B) It may be that early pictures of WACs with '45 Autos were in fact Couriers and NOT MP's??

C) We must be careful apparently, as there do not appear to many articles about WAC MP's in the ETO...??


Whilst it is understandable that alternative impressions should be looked at, and indeed encouraged so as to provide extra interest in the hobby rather than doing 'the same old thing', Lloyd has come up with some other suggestions you may wish to explore, such as;

D) WAC Transportation Corps at the Ports of Embarkation. This would be really different as it has not been done before. WAC's checking log sheets and transportation orders. Male MP's doing what they do on the same display area.

E) Nurses at POW camps towards the end of the war, which apparently is about the closest they got to the front lines??


There is obviously a lot more research that need to take place here, but I hope the above has given you all some food for thought. In any case, we would need to be very careful that we put on the correct impression with the appropriate and complete research having gone into it, otherwise we may leave ourselves wide open for criticism. I also do not want to spend any of your hard earned cash if we are looking at the wrong thing...?

As always, your thoughts are very welcome...

Rusty.[/quo

Q.A.I.M.N.S / T.A.N.S British nurses in BDs if you want to come round for a private fitting ladies.

Jht Amanda says dirty boy.
Also wac m.p,s were in the eto England, France, Belgium Germany,Austria, Wales, Scotland and Italy this is from the the Dragoon, the magazine of the military police. Date of mag number 2 vol 22 winter 2011. Also pops has put up pics on Facebook.

Link to magazine. Very interesting Gav/amanda

Dragoon magazine

Page 36

wizzbang wrote:

Jht Amanda says dirty boy.
Also wac m.p,s were in the eto England, France, Belgium Germany,Austria, Wales, Scotland and Italy this is from the the Dragoon, the magazine of the military police. Date of mag number 2 vol 22 winter 2011. Also pops has put up pics on Facebook.

Fine.

I'm only going on what I've been told. No historical research has been carried out my end - I'll leave that up to those who want to do the impression. All I'm saying is to be careful so that we don't open ourselves up to criticism - as I already said above.

Rusty.

P.S.; 2 x MP Armbands ordered, so in a way I hope you do it otherwise I'm out of pocket!!

It generally takes us 2 years from initial concep to going public with a impression.
Lots of research and books to buy, before the shopping for the new kit.

Hi All,

yep, generally agree with all of the above.

It's all down to research. Yes, we know they were here. Yes, we recognise that, probably, weren't generally armed.

I know that Helen has been in touch with the WAC Museum, we have found tantalising references to their deployment and a few, a very few, ETO photos.

To find 'active' alternative roles for the WAC contingent is going to be difficult, but the MP/Transportation Corps seems to be the most fruitful area of investigation.

Assist, Protect, Defend!

Pops

Interesting article Matt. Thanks for the link.

OK OK so now ive been made to feel a bit of a prize chump....the conversation came about as a result of a conversation between myself and Sgt Lees on how to make our groups impressions more authentic and i fully appreciate the "lure" of WACs to be armed and dangerous etc etc.......but what we have to be very wary of is falling into farce like Nurses in and on the battlefield like combat medics the same as WAC MPs being armed and ready etc etc etc.
i fully uphold the fact that there were "some" WAC MPs in the ETO but the question is begged as to when ?.....look at the locations of those in the Dragoon magazine......i would wager that this was in very late 1944 into 1945 for pre VE Day and mainly Post War occupation duties....as evidenced by very few wartime pics of WAC MPs in Europe.
Most photographic evidence show Service Command and ZOI pictures of them in the USA when women began to replace men who were sent to the front lines after the huge losses in Normandy and The Hurtegen and The Bulge.
And yes there is pictorial evidence of ANC Nurses in the field when the POW and Concentration camps were getting liberated and Anzio apart most Nurses were based at field hospitals 15-20 miles behind the front lines.
Of course there will always be exceptions but surely its better to portray the norm rather than exceptions and i was only trying to be constructive not scathing in our conversations.
This is why i came up with 2 potential scenarios.....Ports Of Embarkation where WACs and Male MPs would have been present.........preparing checking and directing the troops assembling for departure to combat zones....and the POW Escort and preparation for shipping back to UK scenario.
So apologies if ive caused gnashing gums for those that want to be action girls.......but believe me i want us to look right and not fall into the "farb trap" as its all to easy to do that and was genuinely trying to be constructive.
Thanks for taking time to read this waffle.....

Regards

Lloyd

Once again, totally agree with LLoydy.

We have seen enough male MPs who have fallen foul of the Fabfest, that we need to be heedful of luring the WACs into that same gaping black hole!

As has been said time and time again, research, research, research. Our attention to what was the norm and what actually works, is what separates Living History from fancy dress and karaoke!

Make it real, make it live and be true to those we are attempting to honour.

Pops

Merlin36 wrote:

OK OK so now ive been made to feel a bit of a prize chump....the conversation came about as a result of a conversation between myself and Sgt Lees on how to make our groups impressions more authentic and i fully appreciate the "lure" of WACs to be armed and dangerous etc etc.......but what we have to be very wary of is falling into farce like Nurses in and on the battlefield like combat medics the same as WAC MPs being armed and ready etc etc etc.
i fully uphold the fact that there were "some" WAC MPs in the ETO but the question is begged as to when ?.....look at the locations of those in the Dragoon magazine......i would wager that this was in very late 1944 into 1945 for pre VE Day and mainly Post War occupation duties....as evidenced by very few wartime pics of WAC MPs in Europe.
Most photographic evidence show Service Command and ZOI pictures of them in the USA when women began to replace men who were sent to the front lines after the huge losses in Normandy and The Hurtegen and The Bulge.
And yes there is pictorial evidence of ANC Nurses in the field when the POW and Concentration camps were getting liberated and Anzio apart most Nurses were based at field hospitals 15-20 miles behind the front lines.
Of course there will always be exceptions but surely its better to portray the norm rather than exceptions and i was only trying to be constructive not scathing in our conversations.
This is why i came up with 2 potential scenarios.....Ports Of Embarkation where WACs and Male MPs would have been present.........preparing checking and directing the troops assembling for departure to combat zones....and the POW Escort and preparation for shipping back to UK scenario.
So apologies if ive caused gnashing gums for those that want to be action girls.......but believe me i want us to look right and not fall into the "farb trap" as its all to easy to do that and was genuinely trying to be constructive.
Thanks for taking time to read this waffle.....

Regards

Lloyd

Hiya Lloydy.

Firstly, many thanks for your contribution here. Your views are always interesting and remain well respected. Anyone who criticises your efforts will answer to me... Or will be arrested by the MP Section!! Please rest assured that there is to be no bad reflection on what you suggest here - merely an instant respect for your wishes to get things right.

It is my sincere hope that another impression can indeed be found for the ladies - one that is somewhat different to the standard Army Nurses roll. Plus I have already started to source some MP stuff, as requested at Rufford. However, I will now halt in my pursuit of obtaining more stuff from the large 'shopping list' I was given, except where MP gear is not required, until further requested to do so.

Those interested in pursuing an alternative impression, please of course feel free to carry out your own investigations. As has been said, only by hard research work can we accurately put forward another impression. I look forward to seeing more news on this thread in due course.

Rusty.

Hi LLoyd...you're points are valid, and - although we would love to be 'gun totin' gals', we are researching at the moment. Like you, we want to do a great impression......
To save answering all I have just put comments in bold.....

Merlin36 wrote:

....the conversation came about as a result of a conversation between myself and Sgt Lees on how to make our groups impressions more authentic and i fully appreciate the "lure" of WACs to be armed and dangerous etc etc.......but what we have to be very wary of is falling into farce like Nurses in and on the battlefield like combat medics the same as WAC MPs being armed and ready etc etc etc.  [i]{totally agree}
[/i]
i fully uphold the fact that there were "some" WAC MPs in the ETO but the question is begged as to when ?.....look at the locations of those in the Dragoon magazine......i would wager that this was in very late 1944 into 1945 for pre VE Day and mainly Post War occupation duties....{Yep, that's why we continue to research.....!}
as evidenced by very few wartime pics of WAC MPs in Europe.
Most photographic evidence show Service Command and ZOI pictures of them in the USA when women began to replace men who were sent to the front lines after the huge losses in Normandy and The Hurtegen and The Bulge. {agree}
And yes there is pictorial evidence of ANC Nurses in the field when the POW and Concentration camps were getting liberated and Anzio apart most Nurses were based at field hospitals 15-20 miles behind the front lines. (a good many of the evacuation hospitals were used in Germany at the end of the war to nurse the persons in the camps, you may not see the pics but I have written evidence from the research into units and individuals as to their location and actions }[/b]
Of course there will always be exceptions but surely its better to portray the norm rather than exceptions and i was only trying to be constructive not scathing in our conversations. {Not taken as scathing!!! You've made valid points!!!}

This is why i came up with 2 potential scenarios.....Ports Of Embarkation where WACs and Male MPs would have been present.........preparing checking and directing the troops assembling for departure to combat zones....and the POW Escort and preparation for shipping back to UK scenario.
So apologies if ive caused gnashing gums for those that want to be action girls.......but believe me i want us to look right and not fall into the "farb trap" as its all to easy to do that and was genuinely trying to be constructive.
Thanks for taking time to read this waffle.....

Regards

Lloyd

No gnashing gums at this time....too engaged with eating chocolate......

Dear All,

I know there is a WAAC/WAC MP thread somewhere, just not sure where,
.

Anyway, this , received today from U.S. Army Women's Museum......

Mr. Marsh,

Unfortunately, we have very little about WAC MPs serving overseas during
World War 2. WACs were never actually designated as Military Police, but
were assigned to Military Police or guard duties at installations with a
high concentration of WACs in order to discipline other women - a practice
that was seen as uncomfortable and inappropriate for male soldiers. This
means that WACs could have been serving as MPs at most installations with a
large WAC population, but these women would have been considered
Transportation WACs, etc. not Military Police. For that reason, a Field
Manual or regulation was never created for WAC MPs.

As for what we know about the duties of WAC MPs in general: They would
travel in pairs, unarmed. They wore the arm-band denoting MP on their left
arm. Function was to see that WACs were kept in line and also guard against
sabotage. Also checked WAC appearance in public places, patrolled bus
stations to check passes and lend assistance to WAC recruits. Self-defense
class was taught to enable a WAC MP to "break loose" from an attacker, no
throws or punches were taught. WAC MPS had no jurisdiction over any military
personnel other than members of the Women's Army Corps. One of the main
functions for WAC MPs at Ft Oglethorpe was to expedite traffic movements on
the post during public appearances and also as the flag detail. WACs were
used within the MP offices dealing with the public and as desk clerks,
radio, switchboard, and telephone operators. Those qualified would work in
the finger printing and photo labs. Dispatching police cars and transmitting
radio messages to police cars, issuing auto and fishing licenses, and
issuing and checking firearms to MPs going/returning from duty.

In her book The Women's Army Corps, 1942-1945, Mattie Treadwell mentions
that photographs taken of WAC MPs overseas were believed to be staged photos
and that WACs didn't actually serve in that capacity. I can neither confirm
nor deny this. I am attaching a short press release which describes a little
bit of the training WACs might have experienced. I am also attaching a
photograph for which the caption says ETO. That is all it specifies, and I
wouldn't be able to confirm if it was one of these "staged photos" that
Treadwell describes.

If you don't mind my asking, what is the reason for your research? I keep
detailed records of the reasons we receive research requests here at the
museum.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help, but, if you haven't already, you might
want to consider contacting the U.S. Army Military Police Corps Regimental
Museum. They might be able to provide more information.

Ali Kolleda
Archivist
U.S. Army Women's Museum
804-734-4456 | alexandra.j.kolleda.ctr@mail.mil

That clears a few bits up i think.

https://history.army.mil/html/topics/women/female_mps.html

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/162446-mp-armband-can-anyone-identify-for-sure/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skX63NAS35k

http://ww2awartobewon.com/wwii-archives/mp-wacs-yank-magazine/

Great stuff....clearer and clearer...

POPS

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=590786


Ports of Embarkation WAC MP,

I’m not sure how I completely missed this whole thread  Just come across it now anyway. The idea of researching WAC MP’s as a possible new impression came about at the end of last season. We have gathered some evidence and information, although there’s not a lot out there. That's great to read the museum's reply to you Pops, more useful info thank you. I too was in contact with the Archivist there as you know and she replied to me with similar to what Pops posted above. She gave me access to view some pictures and documents in their digital stores, which I have printed off along with a couple of other articles that we have found on the role of WAC MP’s, but we have found very little else so far. Yes the vast majority were stateside although they were also deployed overseas as Gav has listed, I believe also in the Pacific.

I know we are all 100% committed to authenticity and rest assured we will do our best to get any new impression right as we do with the nurses impression. I certainly like the idea of the WAC Transportation Corps Lloyd, definitely one to consider. I don't know much about the Transportation Corps at the moment but for anyone that follows my Women At War Facebook page I posted a nice photo of Transportation nurses wearing the Port of Embarkation patch the other week, although again I don’t know much about their role. A personal view of mine is that there are unique stories to tell and so I don’t think there’s any harm in portraying minority roles and not always the obvious common ones. Today I have been reading about the 6888th WAC Central Postal Directory Battalion based in Birmingham, fascinating stuff.

I have quite a lots of original WAC kit now and some great books, there’s a lot to consider and work though and that will probably be a good topic of discussion for around the fire at events this year as our research grows. In terms of gun touting WACs or nurses for that matter, all the photos that exist are usually posed or off duty antics. Women in the US Army were apparently not issued weapons until 1975. There were sometimes opportunities for voluntary weapons training, but they were not authorised to carry weapons while on duty. Sometimes they would express interest and male soldiers would hold classes during off hours. Some nurses in the Pacific unofficially carried a .45 pistol (again I posted about that on my Facebook page recently if anyone wants a look at the photos).

And Jon, no private uniform fittings needed I’m afraid ;-)